Bernie Borges [00:00:00]:
Most of us have been taught that stress is the enemy. Something to avoid, manage, or even eliminate. But what if the problem isn’t stress itself? What if the problem is our relationship with stress? What if thriving under pressure isn’t about relieving stress, but about learning to move through it with clarity, energy and purpose? Well, my guest today is Jay Abbasi and he knows this topic. This is his territory for firsthand. From leading national training programs at Tesla to coaching executives at companies like Google, Amazon and TikTok. He blends hard won corporate experience with deep expertise and mindfulness, resilience and well being. And his message is crystal clear, success isn’t about avoiding challenges, it’s about mastering them. So in this episode, we’re going to cover why resilience is built through adaptation, not avoidance.
Bernie Borges [00:01:00]:
How to stop fighting stress and start relating to it differently. What it really means to be present and detach from outcomes, and how these threads interconnect into a way of living and leading with fulfillment. Jay, welcome to the Life Fulfilled podcast.
Jay Abbasi [00:01:26]:
Thank you so much, Bernie. I am excited to be here.
Bernie Borges [00:01:28]:
I’m excited to have you. We have a few things in common and I want you to know, and I didn’t tell you this off the recording here, but I am an admirer of yours for several reasons. You are a global keynote speaker, you are an executive coach, you are a former Tesla leader, where you help professionals thrive under what I would imagine was pretty considerable pressure and helping them thrive without burning out. And at Tesla, you led national training programs for over 1,000 employees. And since then, you’ve been coaching leaders, as I mentioned, at brands like Google, Amazon, TikTok, Wells Fargo and others. And if I keep reading through your bio, I’m going to cover things like you’ve been featured in Forbes, Authority magazine, Medium, and of course you are the host of the top rated podcast on Unstuck with Jay Abbasi. Love that. And now you’re blending all of that corporate experience with your expertise in mindfulness, resilience and well being.
Bernie Borges [00:02:32]:
So, Jay, your message is what we’re here to unpack today, and that is success isn’t about avoiding challenges, but mastering them with clarity, energy and purpose. So I think we need to begin with your backstory about how you went from corporate high performer to burnout and. And back. You want to start there?
Jay Abbasi [00:02:51]:
Yeah. So I could take you back to the strategy that I thought would work. That didn’t. And that is I’ll just push myself really hard. I will push myself to the brink and I’ll have Ways to escape, ways to cope, if you will. And for me, my strategy was I. I would just numb myself, distract myself with whatever it was. Television, it was, you know, taking time off.
Jay Abbasi [00:03:21]:
When I was younger, really young, it was playing video games. And I would just do whatever I could to numb, avoid, escape. And then I think I’ll come back and be all right. What that led to, Bernie, was the experience that I later understood to be burnout. I didn’t know what it was back then, and I was just in a state of distress, anxiety, and at times, just deep unhappiness or even depression. And it really wasn’t until I experienced a sudden loss that I started to change my approach to life. It was when my father passed away unexpectedly. He had a heart attack at 55.
Bernie Borges [00:04:05]:
Sorry.
Jay Abbasi [00:04:05]:
And when he. Thank you, Bernie. And when he passed, it was a huge wake up call. What am I doing with my life? I wanted to learn how can I perform at a high level, Be impactful, but also be happy. Why do I think it has to be this exchange where if I’m working really hard, I’m gonna fall into this burnout and I’m going to be unhappy? And so I became obsessed, Bernie, with understanding what it would take to. I studied mindfulness meditation, neuroscience, human psychology, behavior. And that’s what led to me finding methodologies that really worked for me. And when I saw all these other people in the high pressure environments, like Tesla, really struggling, I realized I could help them.
Jay Abbasi [00:04:55]:
And I started to help and saw results. And it has led to the work that I do today.
Bernie Borges [00:05:01]:
Okay, so I know you talk about adapting, the need for us to adapt. Where does that fit in? Like, how do you embrace that concept in this concept of helping people lead through and manage stress and thrive in those environments?
Jay Abbasi [00:05:23]:
Yeah. There are two things that come to mind. First is an awareness of our natural tendency. And the second thing that comes to mind is an understanding of what we need to do differently. So, awareness of our natural tendency. The human being seeks out normal safety, what feels familiar. And because of that, we struggle to be adaptable. We are quite rigid.
Jay Abbasi [00:05:54]:
We like things the way they are. We like things to. We like to be in control of things. If something becomes our normal way of being or normal way of doing things, we want to continue doing that because that’s what makes us feel safe. It makes sense, it’s logical. And, Bernie, in today’s world, where change is happening at a rate we’ve never seen before, it is constant, it is never going to slow down. It’s Only going to speed up. We will struggle.
Jay Abbasi [00:06:23]:
If we’re not adaptable, we’re going to keep falling into distress with things like AI being so disruptive, technological advancement, we’re moving fast here, Bernie. So what I saw in people, and I saw myself was if I continued to try to hold on to the way things were and attach to things going a certain way, I was going to be in a state of resistance, and so were the people I was working with. So we, first, we need the awareness of that. That is something that comes up in us naturally. It’s not wrong or bad, but let’s be aware of that. And second, we have to understand what is required to be adaptable, and that is learning how to detach from things going a certain way. So whatever disruption may come, whatever unexpected challenge, rather than resisting it, rather than fighting it, playing the role of victim, saying I needed to go a different way, being able to accept it, to acknowledge whatever comes up as this is my reality currently as it is, and I can be neutral towards it, then I can start to become curious as to, okay, what are some ways in which I can utilize this as an opportunity? Or I can learn from this, I can grow from this. The questions we ask are what then led us to allow us to become more adaptable? And it becomes training for the, for the average person, or any person for that matter, that wants to be more adaptable.
Jay Abbasi [00:07:51]:
You have to train your mind. So if you’re aware of your tendency and then you understand what it takes to train your mind to be more adaptable, then over time you build up that muscle. And change is not something that you avoid, it’s something that you end up embracing.
Bernie Borges [00:08:06]:
Okay, so what comes to mind, Jay, is the following question, and I’ll give you an example. When I’m dealing with stress, there might be some things that I have some control over. And, and to your point, Jay, from a self awareness standpoint, I should be able to identify the things that I have control over and then maybe act accordingly to control them in a way that’s going to give me the ability to, to deal with them, deal with the stress and all that. But there also can be things I don’t have control over. Right. If you’re in a corporate environment and you get a new boss and you consider that boss to be toxic, there’s nothing you can do to please that boss. And that boss has other people that are his or her favorites and you’re not one of them, you have no control over that. So how are you leading people through this dichotomy of things you can control and things you can’t control.
Jay Abbasi [00:09:03]:
It’s a great question, and it’s one that comes up a lot in the work that I do in my coaching, as well as oftentimes what people are bringing up when I give a talk on the topic. My challenge to that is to be less concerned about control and be more interested in choice. What I mean by that is if we try to really figure out what I have control over, I want control over this, control over this. We’re still in the mindset of trying to control things. Like, let’s let go of control entirely. Let’s not even talk about control. Because control, in my opinion, is quite illusory. We don’t have control over a lot.
Jay Abbasi [00:09:45]:
We have control over very little. And even the things that we think we have control over, we don’t have full control over. Like, for example, people say, well, I can control my thoughts. I challenge that immediately, because if you can control your thoughts, then wouldn’t you only have thoughts that you like and enjoy and not have bad thoughts and negative thoughts? Like, if you have full control over it, then why are there thoughts that you feel in resistance, resistant to? Right. So let’s drop control instead, let’s get to choice. What are your choices? And if you can really tap into choice, the power of choice, then you realize that this game of trying to work through stress is less about what I can and can, can not control. And moreover, the choices I make in response to whatever’s happening. And when I have choice, there’s power in that.
Jay Abbasi [00:10:40]:
There’s a lot of power in choice. But in order for us to have choice, we need space between whatever’s happening and our ability to respond. Then we have choice. What I mean by that is, if something happens that’s disruptive, stressful, if you have that ability to pause, notice what’s happening within you, and then choose your response, then you’re not going to be gripped by the disruption. In order for you to have that space between stimulus and response. It’s a very famous quote by Viktor Frankl. Between stimulus and response, there is a space. And that space is our power to choose our response.
Jay Abbasi [00:11:19]:
And in our response lies our growth and our freedom. If you have that, well, to train your mind to have that space, mindfulness, being able to be present in the moment, are the ways in which one can train themselves to have more space and more choice.
Bernie Borges [00:11:36]:
Is that what you mean by relating to stress differently?
Jay Abbasi [00:11:41]:
Exactly. Exactly. It’s a relationship, Bernie. It is I mean, if you really think about how stress can show up in your life, you can use the analogy of what it’s like if there is a young child that you love dearly that comes to you very upset. I use this analogy often. It’s like, okay, young child comes up to you, she’s screaming, upset, sad. Okay, well, how would you respond to that child? And the first thing people say is, oh, you know, I’d give that child a big hug. It’s like, of course you would give that child a hug.
Jay Abbasi [00:12:15]:
That’s the relationship that you’d have with this child. This is the same thing that we can do with our own distress and our own anxiety. You can relate to it by acknowledging giving that child the hug that it needs, that stress, that. That part of you that’s reacting negatively. Let’s start by acknowledging it and giving it a hug. Then you’d start to ask the child questions, right? Like, what happened? What’s going on? Tell me a little bit about why you’re feeling the way you do. So you take inventory of, hey, what’s going on within me? That stress. What is this really about? Then you would start to guide that child towards a positive outcome, really help the child see a new perspective.
Jay Abbasi [00:12:53]:
This is the same relationship we can have with ourselves when we’re dealing with stress. We seem to understand this logically when it comes to other people, but when it comes to ourselves, Bernie, it is a lot harder, isn’t it?
Bernie Borges [00:13:05]:
Well, you read my mind, Jay, because the example you just gave, it’s a heartwarming example, because first of all, it’s a child, so that’s always going to be boring, pulling on heartstrings, but it’s also you helping someone else. But to your point exactly, when it’s yourself, it’s. It’s a lot harder. So where. Where my mind is going with this is that when we are stressing about something, it’s usually because even. Even if we don’t frame it up this way consciously, we’re stressing about either an outcome we’ve experienced or an outcome that we anticipate is going to happen or can happen with a high probability. So how do you coach people on that outcome concept versus the kind of the relationship that you suggest that we should have with stress?
Jay Abbasi [00:13:59]:
I use an acronym. It’s three words. The acronym is AT W. Okay, that happens, whatever you’re concerned with. And then what? Well, then this would happen. Okay, and then what? And then what? And let’s keep going. And then what? And then what? In the end, what you’re going to find is that you’re not going to die, it’s not going to be life threatening. Like whatever the outcome is that you’re concerned with, play it out.
Jay Abbasi [00:14:28]:
This is a stoic approach. You’ll find this in stoic philosophy, which is play out that worst case scenario. Really go far with it within your own mind. And it’s the same thing that you would do with a child. Right. Which is, hey, okay, they, they didn’t play with you in the playground today. Okay, let’s say they don’t play with you tomorrow. And then what would happen? Well, I’d end up probably playing with a different group of kids.
Jay Abbasi [00:14:51]:
Okay, and then what would happen? Well, I guess then I’d become friends with those kids and everything would be okay. Right. So the simple analogy of this child applies here too, which is play out that scenario as far as you can. And what you’re going to find is that in almost every scenario it’s able to be figured out. You will find a way to work through it.
Bernie Borges [00:15:15]:
So the way that I’m interpreting that, Jay, is that you’re really suggesting that we sort of detach from the immediate perception of what we’re dealing with and, and look at it almost like, and these are my words, I’m not suggesting that you necessarily look at it this way, so tell me if I’m aligned with your thinking or not, but sort of like again, my words, an out of body experience, meaning looking down on my situation, sort of detaching from it, and then looking at it through that lens that you just said. And then what? And then what? That’s kind of how I’m interpreting it. So we’re on the same page or go ahead and.
Jay Abbasi [00:15:57]:
No, absolutely. I think the way I often will explain it is similar, which is like a zoom out.
Bernie Borges [00:16:05]:
Okay.
Jay Abbasi [00:16:05]:
Which is zooming out and looking at it from a 30, 000 foot view and being able to really ask these questions regarding. Well, another way of looking at it is will this be something that five years from now I’m gonna really be thinking about, is this something that’s going to be that disruptive? You know, these little micro decisions that we make, we think it’s the world. I think it’s, it’s so important. Is it though, is, is it really going to be something that has that kind of forever kind of impact? In most cases, the answer is no. So that’s detaching and learning how to let go. Like we were talking about control before Bernie and I Think that this is such a big problem in our society is that the tendency to want to control things and want to control things. But if you think about control, right, really what, what happens, your fists close, you get tense, right? I want to control things. This is not a very relaxing, happy experience to feel like this, but when we think about letting go and allowing and being adaptable, that, that would be the body, the physical body being more relaxed, palms up.
Jay Abbasi [00:17:22]:
That’s the way we want to live. Not just because, by the way, it makes us happier and we’re more at peace, but we’ll actually perform better too, because you’re not going to be in a state of reaction. You’re not going to be in that fight, flight or freeze because you’re trying to control anymore. If you can be more in a state of responding with space, you’ll also respond with more clarity.
Bernie Borges [00:17:46]:
Okay, now, Jay, you have not yet mentioned the F word. And let me explain what I mean by that. But you just, you said a moment ago that this is how we want to live. We want to live. If I can paraphrase in a way that we can, we can adapt, we can, we can look at things holistically, zoom out sort of thing, and, and, and just understand our relationship with stress, manage it, and then live our lives that way. And what I mean by the F word is what’s the impact on our fulfillment? That’s what I mean by the F word. How do you connect that to fulfillment? Because I, I know you talk about fulfillment as well.
Jay Abbasi [00:18:31]:
Yeah. You know, I think, well, I’ll just go to my own personal experience, Bernie. And what I also then hear from feedback from others when I really ask them about fulfillment. To me, my experience, fulfillment always has to do with the effect I have on others. I think of all the things that are fulfilling in my experience, the greatest sense of fulfillment comes from when, When I had some kind of positive effect, some kind of impact on another person. And so when I would, how I would frame it is when I’ve taken my own unique set of skills, the ways in which I can serve the world, and I’ve connected that to a positive impact on another person, that that’s the greatest fulfillment that I can personally experience. And so what I think is the way in which we work through, let’s say we connect the dots between stress and frustration and how we can move that into fulfillment is really to get out of one’s own self absorption of it’s really about me and what I get and we shift into what I Give and how I impact others. And.
Jay Abbasi [00:19:56]:
And whenever I ask people, Bernie, it’s one of my favorite conversations that I have with people is I ask them, you know, if you were to zoom out, look at your life as a whole, and maybe you’re at the end of your life and you’re looking back, what’s the impact that you want to have had? What’s the legacy that you want to have left? And I know you love that word, legacy. Nearly every time, Bernie, someone will answer with something about serving someone else. They don’t talk about themselves. It doesn’t always come to the surface, but sometimes when we dive deeper or when we dive deeper, it will come to its surface. And to me, that’s the greatest sense of fulfillment we can all tap into. When I’ve taken something that I can uniquely give and I’ve given it away and it’s impacted others in a positive way.
Bernie Borges [00:20:42]:
Okay, well, actually, you nailed it, Jay, because I view that as fulfillment in the legacy pillars. So you’re right. Legacy is. Is a topic for me because it’s one of my five pillars in. In the way that we all human beings want to experience fulfillment. And the other four are health, fitness, career, relationships, and then legacy. Legacy is about impact. And because I look at fulfillment through the lens of those five pillars, I’d love to get your reflection on that as well, because I know that a lot of your work, much of work, maybe most or all of your work, is.
Bernie Borges [00:21:18]:
Is really coaching people and speaking to people. And in that career pillar, your background at Tesla is an example of that. But to what extent are you touching people’s lives on those other pillars? Are you speaking to them about the impact, the relationship that those other pillars have? Whether you name them that or not, it doesn’t really matter, but sort of a more holistic approach. What’s your. Your approach in that. In that regard?
Jay Abbasi [00:21:47]:
Yeah. So something like health or fitness, for example. How I frame it, Bernie, is we do those things. We take care of ourselves by going to the gym, exercising, eating. Well, we do these things so we can fill in the blank. Right. So in other words, I look at things like that when I’m taking care of myself. It’s so I can have the energy, I can have the focus to be able to positively affect others.
Jay Abbasi [00:22:27]:
And. And that could be how I show up as a father to my daughter. It could be how I show up as a husband to my wife. So it. I think it could all connect to that mission that you’re on, and that mission could be Multiple things. Right. In the way in which you serve. So I look at it as the vehicles through which we have an impact on others.
Jay Abbasi [00:22:54]:
And relationship, of course, is a big part, actually, if you really think about all of it, is relationship in some way, isn’t it? Like, relationship is every. It’s all religious. My relationship to loved ones, my relationship to this work, my relationship to this legacy, kind of all centered around relationship, now that I just said it that way.
Bernie Borges [00:23:13]:
Yeah, I think it’s a slightly different definition or. Or meaning of the word relationship. You know, just like there are other. Other words in the English language that can have multiple meanings. But. But I get your point, and I think it’s a valid point, our relationship. And that takes us full circle, really, to the. The core theme of this conversation.
Bernie Borges [00:23:36]:
And that is that stress, as you say. I’m paraphrasing you, Jay. Stress isn’t the enemy. It’s really your relationship with stress. So as we get close to wrapping here, what would you say to the listener? My listener, who’s been with me for any period of time, knows that I do talk about the five life pillars, but I haven’t really addressed stress in a specific, meaningful way as we’re doing in this conversation. And I love your approach to it around. It’s your relationship with stress that really matters. So what can someone take away from this conversation that they can go act on today?
Jay Abbasi [00:24:17]:
Well, first, I would say to anyone that you are never stressing about something that you don’t care about. The other way of saying that is you only stress about. About things that you care about. You only stress about things that have meaning. So if that’s the case, then a life without stress is a life without meaning. You want stress, like stress is a good thing. And if you can just shift that perspective, you will be able to thrive under any pressure. We used to think, Bernie, that, you know, we got to reduce our stress.
Jay Abbasi [00:25:05]:
We got to get rid of it. We gotta cope. The research suggests otherwise. Kelly McGonagall has done some phenomenal work in this space and the work she’s done with Aaliyah Crumb. Anyone can look this up. They find that the bigger lever to pull is not reducing stress. It’s really looking at stress as something that’s helpful. So what you can do in practice is whenever you’re feeling stress in your body, and we’ll say stress is a high umbrella item.
Jay Abbasi [00:25:39]:
But that could be anxiety. It can be fear, it can be anger. Right? Stress. Look to it as something that’s helping you to do something meaningful. It could be, I’m learning from this, I’m going to act on this. It’s helping me to grow. But whatever it is, don’t see it as something you need to resist. See it as something that’s helpful.
Bernie Borges [00:26:04]:
Okay, I like that. And where I want to go with that, Jay, is I think the way my mind is responding to your guidance on that is to give it context. Because, look, I have stress in my life. To your point, we stress about the things that are meaningful. And to your point, point, if nothing was meaningful, I wouldn’t have any stress. So I have meaningful things and I have stress. So I think the way that I internalize your guidance is to give those stressors, those things that. That are stressing me context and, and look at where they fit into my life, which pillar are they in? And then have the presence of mind.
Bernie Borges [00:26:47]:
I know you talk about presence to acknowledge where in my pillars I’m not stressing. And I can just kind of relax and enjoy that, like give myself a little bit of credit for where I’m not stressing. So that in the area where I am stressing, I can give it context and I can remind myself that I’m not stressed out about my entire life. I’m stressed out over here, you know, but not over here. What, you know, whatever that looks like for me. That’s how I’m internalizing that. What’s your reaction to that?
Jay Abbasi [00:27:26]:
So the part about context, I think is a valuable angle to consider. So let’s use this example. If you were to go to the gym and you did a bench press workout for your chest, and it. You went real heavy, Bernie. Right. The next day, what are you going to feel?
Bernie Borges [00:27:49]:
Some soreness in. In my pecs.
Jay Abbasi [00:27:51]:
In your pecs. Right. Okay. If you felt that same soreness in your chest and your thoughts around it are. It’s cons. You have concern that it’s related to your heart and your overall health, but it’s the same exact feeling. You would be interpreting it quite differently, wouldn’t you?
Bernie Borges [00:28:14]:
Yeah, yeah.
Jay Abbasi [00:28:15]:
There would be fear around it, resistance around it. This is. Oh, my God. You’re playing a story in your mind. My heart. I’m going to have to go see a cardiologist. Oh, my God. What if I need open heart surgery? All this.
Jay Abbasi [00:28:26]:
But if we just look at two people that were experiencing that raw sensation in their chest, it might be equivalent. It might be exactly the same. One has a positive story. Hey, it’s actually giving me a sense of. I’m getting Stronger. I feel soreness in my chest. That’s a good thing. The other person sees it as.
Jay Abbasi [00:28:44]:
This could mean I’m dying any. Any moment. Okay. That’s the way in which we can realign the story we’re telling ourselves regarding something that we are claiming is stressful. What’s the story we’re telling ourselves about it? And if the story you’re telling is one that’s negative, you’re like that person who thinks there’s something wrong with their heart. But if you tell yourself a story that you know what? This stress right here is helping me to be more courageous. It’s helping me to grow. It’s helping me to be able to take on more pressure and push through.
Jay Abbasi [00:29:21]:
Just that shift in mindset will allow for you to be more adaptable and perform at a higher level even when the demand increases.
Bernie Borges [00:29:31]:
Jay, you just said something that, to me, encapsulates. Encapsulates this entire conversation. You said as a question. What’s the story you’re telling yourself as it relates to this stress? That, to me, that’s it in a nutshell.
Jay Abbasi [00:29:51]:
Yeah.
Bernie Borges [00:29:51]:
What’s the story I’m telling myself about this stress?
Jay Abbasi [00:29:57]:
Yeah. Bernie, once it was said to me, we are meaning making machines. A mentor once said that. I’ll never forget it. He said, we are meaning making machines. We are adding meaning to everything, consciously or unconsciously. What I’m encouraging everyone to do is be conscious about the meaning you’re giving the story you’re telling. And a simple question just like that, what’s the story I’m telling myself? Could evoke a new response.
Jay Abbasi [00:30:26]:
And now how you relate to stress is different than it was before.
Bernie Borges [00:30:31]:
Yeah. I love it. Well, this has been, no pun intended, meaningful for me because I’m literally thinking about the areas in my life where I am experiencing stress and thinking about that very point. Jay, what’s the story that I’m telling myself? And I think that’s a great takeaway for my listeners. So I think we can wrap it there. But of course, for first, Jay, please share with my listener your contact details. Where can people connect with you, learn more about you, your services, your podcast? All the above.
Jay Abbasi [00:31:07]:
Yeah. The website is. Is the home to everything. It’s J. Abbasi me. You’ll find the unstuck podcast there and all the social media platforms. I’m Most active on LinkedIn, so anyone can just search Jay Abbasi, find me there. And we also have our YouTube channel going as well.
Bernie Borges [00:31:27]:
Fantastic. Well, Jay, I have enjoyed this conversation immensely. I want to thank you so much for joining me on this episode of the Life Fulfilled podcast. And I can’t wait to just dive deeper into all your content on your Unstuck podcast. And I know that I’ve got an episode coming out there soon as well, and look forward to that as well. And just look forward to continuing the conversation, even if it’s not a wonderful recorded conversation.
Jay Abbasi [00:31:52]:
Absolutely. Bernie, thank you so much for having me. And. And the episode we recorded for Unstuck. You were phenomenal. You gave me a different perspective on how to think about fulfillment. So I appreciate the insights you shared with me when we recorded that episode.
Bernie Borges [00:32:08]:
Fantastic. All right, till next time.
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