Bernie Borges [00:00:00]:
We are living through a moment of mass transformation. And for millions of people, that transformation has meant losing a job. And in many cases, they didn’t even see it coming. AI. We know AI is reshaping. Entire industries and companies are making decisions that affect real people, real families, and real careers. But here’s what nobody tells you when a layoff hits. The hardest part isn’t the job search, it’s the identity crisis.
Bernie Borges [00:00:30]:
Today’s guest is Jess Smith. Jess is a chief people officer turned chro consultant, and she has lived this firsthand. When she was laid off from Meta, she made a choice. Instead of letting that moment define her, she used it to redefine herself. This conversation is for every leader, really every individual that’s navigating change, whether you’re leading others through it or just trying to find your footing in the middle of it. And the promise of this episode is how to lead with humanity during an AI driven transformation. Why a layoff might be the healthiest thing that ever happened to you. How to disconnect your identity and worth from your title and your company, and the anchor framework for leading people through change with dignity.
Bernie Borges [00:01:29]:
Jess, welcome to the Life Fulfilled podcast. It’s great to have you.
Jess Smith [00:01:33]:
Thanks so much, Bernie. Thanks for having me.
Bernie Borges [00:01:35]:
Absolutely. Jess, you are a seasoned chief people officer and chro consultant with deep experience leading organizations through major, major transformation. And as a former chief people officer, you have guided teams through some of the most complex and high stakes moments that that a workforce can ever face. So in this conversation, let’s go beyond the frameworks and the theory and into what it really means to lead people with humanity and how to rediscover who you are when your identity gets tangled up in your job. So I think we need to begin with your backstory. Tell us the high level on your backstory.
Jess Smith [00:02:19]:
Yeah, absolutely. So I started my career actually in finance. So I started in finance. I ended up transitioning to HR kind of mid through my career with talent acquisition, and then I spent most of my HR executive career in big tech. So I worked in Amazon and aws. Then later I Meta, which of course we’ll talk about later, where I was laid off and ended up getting into Chief People Officer at Hays for the Americas after that role.
Bernie Borges [00:02:52]:
And then. And currently you’re a consultancy, right?
Jess Smith [00:02:58]:
That’s right. So I founded Reframing hr, which really focuses on the AI transformation from an HR lens. And so it’s really made us a platform for all of us HR practitioners to help us figure out how to lead digital transformation. But then also how to think about our own org designs based on the experience for someone who sat in the seat.
Bernie Borges [00:03:23]:
So just as I said in the introduction, this, this AI transformation is very, very prevalent in the workforce today and a lot of companies are laying people off. We see in the news pretty much on a weekly basis. Tell us a little bit of your story when you were laid off from Meta. Give us a little bit of that story. What was, did you see it coming? What was the experience like and what impact did that have on you and your identity?
Bernie Borges [00:03:52]:
Yeah, so that’s the tough thing about being an hr, Bernie. Typically you absolutely see it coming. You’re probably planning it as well. And that was definitely the case to some degree at Meta. So at Meta I led our early and career talent. So it was over 5,000 employees that were in school, in different programs, in college, maybe their masters or had just recently graduated. And so at that time we were had really big programs around helping those individuals assimilate into Meta, into tech and supporting them of course across for hr, which was my role in programs. And so we, Meta had a strategy.
Jess Smith [00:04:36]:
Like many companies right post the pandemic, Meta had done lots of hiring and people early in the career was definitely part of that equation. And so as the market started to cool off, like many companies, Meta was early in identifying that absolutely there was an over hiring had taken place and we needed to correct that. And so one of the areas where we corrected was our early and career talent. And of course then as we would be impacting those people, then of course our job would be impacted next. So absolutely 100% saw it coming. And then given my level there as well, like we, we knew what, what was going to happen in a couple days, albeit we didn’t know who exactly would be impacted. And so I knew there was going to be an email then or you going to get an email or you weren’t going to get email, right the next morning, 5am or 6am So I went to the gym as I would normally do, knowing that when I came out I would have an email or I wouldn’t have an email. And I had the email.
Jess Smith [00:05:41]:
And so it was definitely the first thing I did was call everybody in my team and make sure that people were okay. You know, even though I was impacted as a leader, I still care about every single person in my team whether they’re impacted or not. Because you’re always impacted, right? Even if you didn’t lose your job and you stay, you’re still impacted. And so called everybody on my team, the people that were impacted tried to encourage them, let them know that, no, it’s going to be okay for ones that stay to encourage them. Right. Because obviously that’s traumatic. And then I remember at 4pm we lost all of our connection to the database, the website or apps. My kids came home from school and they knew that this was a scenario that could play out.
Jess Smith [00:06:29]:
So I said, what happened, Mom? I said, well, I was impacted. And they were like, what are you going to do now? I said, watch TV with you guys? We just sat there and we watched tv and I was so emotionally drained, I just fell asleep and they just laid in my arms and I took a nap and they watched tv.
Bernie Borges [00:06:48]:
So the other part of the question is, because it is something that I think many of us have dealt with, myself included, is the part of that experience that is emotional, that is our identity, you know, so speak to that, Jess, because I. Because I. I’ve got some other. I’ve got another area that I want to go down, you know, not quite a rabbit hole, but in the conversation. But I. I want to hear from you. What impact did it have on you and your identity?
Jess Smith [00:07:21]:
It was big, right? It’s the first time I had not worked or been connected to an, you know, an educational institution, like been studying or. And so. And you know, like many people, I’m super driven. I come to my career and I always saw myself connected to and have always been to organization. And so I remember the next day I had a conference to go to two or three days later, and all I could think about was, you know, typical in a conference burning people are like, hey, I’m so and so. I work for this place and I’m this title, right? That’s like your typical conference line. And I just thought, what am I going to say? Just said. And I.
Jess Smith [00:08:01]:
Right. And that was terrifying. It was really terrifying because what I figured out very quickly was that absolutely my identity had gotten roped up into who I was professionally as a title and to the company that I was with.
Bernie Borges [00:08:17]:
Very, very common. All right, so let’s go down the path of where I want to go in this conversation, and that is leading through transformation in a human led way. You’ve already begun to speak to that just by sharing the experience, Jess, where that same day that you got the email, even though you were impacted, you reached out to your team. So why don’t you unpack that? What does it look like for a leader to lead through transformation when they are impacted themselves and to lead using A human LED approach.
Jess Smith [00:08:51]:
Yeah. And the, the first thing it takes is putting you out of the equation. Right. So just being aware that it’s not about you. Like you as the leader, need to go somewhere else, right. To get your cup refilled and re energized. Not that you shouldn’t do it, but you just need to go somewhere else. But our job is to be there for our team and that’s whether we’re impacted or not.
Jess Smith [00:09:16]:
And so showing up for the team in a way that’s empathetic, it doesn’t mean you need to be overly like, you don’t want to be too overly kind in these moments. And that sounds kind of strange, right? But you, you need to, you also work at the organization, so there is a hard line of not trying to take back or lessen what has happened, but being empathetic as a human and connecting with that person around. You know that helping them think and know that they are going to be okay is really the most important part. And even in doing your part to help that however you can. Right. So like I offer the right reference letters for people, I tell them, go on my network, on LinkedIn, you can connect with people that I know. Just think about ways that you can help. And that is the most important thing you can do.
Bernie Borges [00:10:11]:
And you, you talk about a framework that you call the anchor framework. Do you want to speak to that?
Jess Smith [00:10:18]:
Yeah, absolutely. So the anchor framework is in my last role, one of my previous roles, I led five transformations in a very short period of time. And so I learned very quickly what success looks like in transformation. And a big part of the success is actually after the transformation, what you do after and how you manage change. You get your colleagues that are still in the business to now reengage with you and continue to be productive. And so I came up with the anchor framework to help leaders really understand, think and plan for what’s going to be the post life after this transition. Because these are still humans, right? Like, we will all feel traumatized and you are missing your colleagues. Right.
Bernie Borges [00:11:08]:
And there are still emotions happening after you go through transformation. And so the A in anchor is for anchor stability. And so as a leader, the most important thing you can do to anchor stability. Because a lot of times right after transformation, people look for, okay, is this it? Right. And you don’t really know the answer to that. Right. Especially in a moment that we’re in where AI is prevalent. We don’t know one day to the next what’s going to happen to the workforce.
Jess Smith [00:11:35]:
And so you don’t want to over promise anything. And so anchor stability is about you being predictable and so telling people what you’re going to do and then doing it and then telling them again. And so that is the stability part. The end is around nurturing wellness. So this one’s really important actually because after a really big event like a transformation or reduction in force, everybody’s tired. Like you’re emotionally exhausted. Especially if you were in, in the works and planning for it, you definitely are exhausted. Right? Because kinds of things, you don’t sleep for months prior to that.
Jess Smith [00:12:11]:
I know I don’t. And so showing your team that it’s okay to take breaks is really important. And so telling people, hey, I’m going to take my next meeting and a walking meeting or I’m going to take PTO and I’m not going to be online, like actually taking off is really important so that people can see you are also need wellness and health and they, they can feel free to do that. The C is creating meaning. So helping your colleagues who are still there reconnect to why they work there. Right. So tell them, hey, here’s a new strategy, here’s how your role fits into that. The H is about holding community and so bringing people together where you can, ideally in person, but even if not creating community.
Jess Smith [00:12:53]:
Right. So would that be through your employee resource groups or finding ways to connect people together? It’s really important. O is orienting to the future. So having people to see, hey, this is a long term strategy, I know how my role fits into it. But then here are the things you can do to keep developing for that. And then the R which is restoring the trust. And this is key. If you don’t restore the trust, your colleagues won’t return to productivity and a lot of those gains that you made in that transformation would disappear.
Jess Smith [00:13:26]:
And so you restore trust by again doing what you’re going to say, saying what you’re going to do and then you do it over and over and over. And so even if it’s quick wins, you’ll want to do that very quickly.
Bernie Borges [00:13:39]:
I love it. I think it’s really, really well thought out and each letter in that acronym has meaning, just as you know. But I’m going to tell you that my favorite, even though they all have meaning and together together, it’s a great tool for leaders to navigate major transitions. But my favorite is C for community. Just because I think the community can really make or break a transition for a lot of people. You know, finding camaraderie finding love and nurturing and support. I know the N stands for nurturing. I get that.
Bernie Borges [00:14:17]:
But the. The community part I just think is so powerful. And I just love that about the whole tool. Where I want to go next in this conversation, Jess, is we’ve talked about how we feel. A lot of times we. And I’ve experienced this myself. We feel like our identity is in our work. And you talk about disconnecting your identity from your title.
Bernie Borges [00:14:43]:
So why don’t you speak to that? How did you handle that?
Jess Smith [00:14:47]:
Yeah, so it was not easy, Bernie, to be honest. I had to take a pause and think about what’s something that I always wanted to do that I’ve never done before, because now I would have time. And so for me, that was cardio dance, like Zumba. So I’d been going to Zumba classes for years. I danced my way through my second pregnancy. Like, I firmly believe in cardio dance and make sure the endorphins you get from dancing, you just end very happy. And you feel like the stress is just gone and. And the moves are great, right? If you like dancing and up to Latino music.
Jess Smith [00:15:28]:
So I always want to do Zumba. And so, you know, we don’t know what to do. Just take the next step. This is what I always say. And so I didn’t know what else to do. So that I thought, I’ll look on the website and I’ll find a certification class. I’ll go get certified. So there was one in New York that next weekend.
Jess Smith [00:15:45]:
I flew to New York, spent the whole day dancing to certify, and I became a Zumba instructor. So when I came back, they told us at the. At the Zumba certification, they told us, okay, when you get back, it’s probably going to take you three to six months to, like, find a gig teaching Zumba. And I come from tech, right? I mean, nothing in tech takes three to six months. Like, absolutely not. Like, I definitely won’t be waiting that long. So I thought, I won’t wait to find a gig. I’ll just start it myself.
Jess Smith [00:16:15]:
So I took everything that I had learned and Amazon, I stood up, actually, several functions, one of them being talent, intelligence. And so I knew how to stand things up from the ground, be able to scale. And so I just put everything that I learned in tech into practice. And I ended up starting a Zumba mobile, really cardio fitness business. And so I ended up teaching Zumba at Soho House for that group. I had my own classes around Austin and across six locations around 20 teachers across those locations, classes all throughout the week, just from something that was a passion. And so I started Breakthrough Fitness atx, which still exists.
Bernie Borges [00:16:57]:
Wow, that is. That’s impressive. So during the introduction to, the promises that I made was how to disconnect from your identity. And also the other one is that a layoff might be the healthiest thing that’s ever happened to you. And that was kind of a setup because that’s really your Zumba story, right?
Jess Smith [00:17:19]:
Yes.
Bernie Borges [00:17:19]:
I mean, not only do you do Zumba for your own health, and I’ll even use the word recreation, and maybe that’s right or wrong, I don’t know. But also as a business. So even though the layoff happened, you dove into Zumba, you applied your skills, your talents, your experience from tech, and just, boom, exploded in the Zumba business. That is awesome. That is really, really terrific. So congratulations on that, Jess.
Jess Smith [00:17:53]:
Thank you. And you’re right, it was the healthiest thing. I mean, physically too. Right. Because Zumba is not my workout. I can’t. When I teach a class, it can’t be my workout. Right.
Jess Smith [00:18:04]:
You teach for others. So I would already have worked out that day. And then I teach Zumba, so a lot of days I was teaching twice a day. I might have been practicing. So three times a day. So I was the fittest I’ve ever been in life. On top of that.
Bernie Borges [00:18:18]:
That’s great. That’s great. So let’s, let’s use that as. As sort of a. An example of how, in your case, Zumba was your way to be a healthy experience, to have a healthy experience from a layoff, how do you use that story, Jess, when you’re either coaching or consulting or participating in a transformation in an organization and leading those people through a human led, dignified way, how do you actually use your story to actually embody, you know, a dignified human LED transformation?
Jess Smith [00:18:58]:
Yes. So when I’m leading a transformation or, and. Or reduction of force, I am literally thinking about every single person that’s involved. And so I’m thinking about every spreadsheet that exists, every person on that list. I’m personally going through it multiple times. So first, like, attention to the details, because I want, even though we are going to be exiting employees, I want people to walk out as dignified and respected as they walked in. The second thing is ensuring that they leave with the confidence they came in with. Right.
Jess Smith [00:19:37]:
So when we’re doing these types of reductions or transformation, there are different ways to write the communication, to frame what’s happening to Them in different ways. And, and so I make sure and anchor into, if it’s not performance related, not to anchor in performance. Right. Or, or try to demean, take away their confidence on the way out because they’re going to need that. It’s going to take a hit anyway. Right. When you, when you leave the organization. So that’s a really big one.
Jess Smith [00:20:10]:
How you frame the communication and the why is super important because most of the times these things are not about you. Right. They’re about the organization and the organization’s future. So that’s definitely the second. And then the third is on top of like obsessing over the details and ensuring the communication is such that people are leaving and feeling respected. Finally, I think about how can we as an organization support these colleagues no matter what? Right. So, you know, can we do outplacement if we can’t? Can our recruiting team help to identify opportunities? Can we give coaching on resume? Can we look at their LinkedIn? Right. Most companies will have a talent acquisition team.
Jess Smith [00:20:59]:
Right. What can that team do to help support these colleagues before they go out into the world? Can we give them premium licenses on LinkedIn for 90 days? Right. So just thinking there’s always something you can do and so what can you do to just show that actual, that added support is the third one.
Bernie Borges [00:21:18]:
So I want to connect this to my fulfillment centric leadership model. You have anchor as a model. Mine is fulfillment centric leadership. Just, you know, that it’s based on the five, what I call the five life pillars. Health, fitness, career, relationships and legacy. Any listener who’s been with me for a while knows that. So everything we’ve been discussing how, how can we connect that. And let, let me actually start that conversation and then I’ll ask you to kind of join me in the conversation and, and either agree with me or push back or just, you know, add your own thoughts and dimension to it.
Bernie Borges [00:21:53]:
But it seems to me that when someone is experiencing a transformation that results in them being reduced or exited from the organization. From a health standpoint, it can impact their, their mental health and certainly if they’re losing sleep, that can also have a physical impact on their health as well. From a fitness standpoint, if they’re already in a fitness routine, hopefully they stay in it as opposed to withdrawing from it. From a career standpoint, you know, you spoke to the meaning of confidence. People need confidence to move on to a new chapter. Whether it’s something like what you did, not that Zumba is necessarily your full thing, because it’s not your full time thing, it’s, it’s part of what you do, but nonetheless it’s, it’s a reinvention. And then from a relationship standpoint, certainly the people we work with were impacted there because some of those relationships we want to maintain, maybe even relationships at home. You told the story about how your kids asked you, so what are you going to do now, mom? Right.
Bernie Borges [00:22:51]:
So those relationships and then legacy is really about how not only how do you want to be remembered, but what’s the impact you can have today. And I think when you are part of that community that I spoke of and you spoke of earlier, I think that can have an impact on your legacy as well. Those are just some of my initial thoughts on how to kind of frame this up within the five pillars. And I’d love for you to just kind of, you know, join me in that, that whole thought process.
Jess Smith [00:23:17]:
Yeah, no, I agree definitely with all those things and I really. The legacy one too, because I think if you lead with that one. So if you’re thinking, okay, how do I want to be remembered when we, I don’t want to say get past, right, because it’s not that AI will go away, but you know, things, there’s a hype cycle to things. And so when we look backwards and we’re at the other side of the hype cycle and now what will people say about you as a leader? And so that legacy part, I think leading with that as well will really help people to really find that anchor and be the person, the leader that, that’s really compassionate to lead through this moment.
Bernie Borges [00:24:01]:
Before we get to your contact information, any closing thought, any question that I have not asked you, Jess, in the, in the context of this whole conversation around, you know, human led transformation, especially in the face of major change like we’re experiencing now,
Jess Smith [00:24:22]:
the only other thing I would say is that, you know, kind of, kind of a closing things to think about, right? As people go through this, that really three things. So protect your voice, right? So as you, even if you’re impacted by transformation and you end laid off or, you know, a part of the reduction in force, protecting your voice is really about what we talked about before and not, not allowing yourself to think that, you know, you are you, everything ends and ends, breathe, stops and stops, starts and stops with your title and your company. And so realizing that you’re more than that and you can do a lot of that work now, right? So using like your platform now, finding your voice today while you’re still sitting in that Organization. Those are all the things you should be doing now, because you should be thinking, okay, if I. If I leave tomorrow, what I get to that conference, right? What am I going to say? And by the way, now at the conference, I say, I’m just chief people officer, no company. And then I say, and I do this thing because I don’t need another. I don’t need anybody to tell me what’s my job and my title. And it doesn’t have to be connected to an employer.
Jess Smith [00:25:45]:
So find your voice number two. I would say don’t let your past be the ceiling for your future. Like a lot of times when we get laid off, we can think we’re applying for jobs, we’re looking for jobs, the ones we did before. And I actually found my promotion job right after my. After my layoff. So I went from being a director of HR to leading all of HR and all of its parts right? In my next role in another publicly traded organization. So don’t let the last thing you do be the ceiling. Like, zoom out and think, wait a minute, maybe I’ve gotten the experiences that I need now to do the next thing.
Jess Smith [00:26:25]:
And so how do I now get recognized for that? What do I need to pivot in my career? What I need to pivot on paper to be seen as that? What are the activities I should be doing? What’s the network I should be making as it relates to that? And then finally, my final thought, Bernie, is not everything is about you. Right. And I say that because a lot of times we get into these layoff situations and we’re like, oh, woe is me. I’ve been laid up, I’ve been fired. But sometimes I believe that everything happens for a reason. And sometimes our path is actually for others. Right? So pour into other people as you’re in that season as well. I continue to mentor people from our previous teams.
Jess Smith [00:27:07]:
I just try to pour into people however I can and support, uplift others, and maybe really it’s about that and them. And as a result, as you keep pouring into people, it makes you more energized, more excited, and that will show up in how you show up in your interviews for the next role.
Bernie Borges [00:27:27]:
Amen. I couldn’t agree with you more on all those points, but really, the exclamation point on the very last point, and what I’ll add to that is that it can give you and it will give you a tremendous sense of fulfillment. Right. I’m sure as you mentor people, that feeds your fulfillment tank, as I call it. Now. And then the other thing that I want to say this before we close it out and before I lose this thought, because you said sort of at the beginning of your closing thought that you want to really think of your total value and not just the title and the role at your last job. Here’s the irony. If AI was the reason, the transformational reason, that you were part of a reduction of force.
Bernie Borges [00:28:15]:
Well, the irony is that you can use AI to feed it all of your wonderful experience and ask it to give you some messaging and positioning statements that you maybe not may not come up with on your own.
Jess Smith [00:28:31]:
Yes.
Bernie Borges [00:28:31]:
You know, harness the power, the creative power of AI to actually give you some messaging that you can actually use that is true to who you are.
Jess Smith [00:28:41]:
Yeah, no, and I completely agree with you. I think that we should use all the tools that we have. And AI is really good at helping to zoom out. And you actually might, putting all your experience in there, figure out that you’re actually positioned to do something else you hadn’t thought of or your bigger role. Right. Or maybe it’s time for you to do your portfolio career. And so it’s not just one job, it’s multiple things. And so really having some conversations with yourself internally, with your.
Jess Smith [00:29:15]:
Your friends and family mentor, as well as Claude or Chad or fill in the blank will definitely help. Would definitely help with that.
Bernie Borges [00:29:23]:
Yeah. Or become a Zumba instructor or become
Jess Smith [00:29:26]:
too much work there. Or core Bernie, Now I certified in core strength as well.
Bernie Borges [00:29:30]:
Oh, okay.
Jess Smith [00:29:31]:
I have two classes.
Bernie Borges [00:29:33]:
Wow.
Bernie Borges [00:29:34]:
Okay.
Bernie Borges [00:29:35]:
I don’t think I’m going to take one of your classes. You’d probably kick my butt.
Bernie Borges [00:29:38]:
But I don’t live in your area.
Bernie Borges [00:29:42]:
I’m sure I would. I’m sure I would. Jess, this is a wonderful conversation. I really admire the work that you’re doing and how you’re impacting people. How can people connect with you and get into your world?
Jess Smith [00:29:54]:
Yeah, definitely. Through LinkedIn. So, Jess Smith, reframing HR. Also the website for reframing. So it’s reframing HR.com or follow me on Instagram. I’m leadershiplessons_ from underscore Life.
Bernie Borges [00:30:10]:
Fantastic. Well, my listener knows that all that will be linked up in the show notes. And again, Jess, I just want to thank you so much for joining me for this episode of the Life and Full Podcast. This is a meaningful conversation, a timely conversation, and I know it’s going to be helpful to a lot of people.
Jess Smith [00:30:25]:
Awesome. Thanks for having me, Bernie.
